Media art for public spaces with Ariana Gerstein and ​Monteith McCollum

What happens when an artwork is shaped by the unpredictability of public space? 

In this interview Ariana Gerstein and Monteith McCollum discuss What We Bring, an outdoor installation that extends Ariana’s larger documentary project exploring migration, personal history, and overlooked traces of the past. While filming in Athens, Greece, she was drawn to a clothesline hanging in an old neighborhood—a simple yet powerful marker of everyday life. The street, surrounded by century-old markets and remnants of war, embodied layers of history intertwined with personal and familial narratives. This imagery became the foundation of What We Bring, where projected visuals interact with moving fabrics to evoke memory, presence, and impermanence. 

Ariana is an experimental filmmaker whose projection installations and non-traditional cinematic works explore themes of memory, time, and personal narratives. Monteith McCollum is an inter-media artist working with film, sound, and sculpture.   

Listen to this podcast to learn about:

• Adapting media art for outdoor and public space
• Overcoming challenges of weather when working outdoors
• Bridging documentary storytelling with the emotional power of installation art

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Chapters

• (00:00:00) Introduction and acknowledgements

• (00:00:52) Meet the artists: Ariana Gerstein and Monteith McCollum
• (00:01:19) The concept and inspiration behind 'What We Bring'
• (00:01:52) Challenges and dynamics of outdoor installations
• (00:04:27) Exploring the technical aspects
• (00:10:25) Sound design and audience interaction
• (00:21:17) Collaboration and creative process
• (00:24:00) Lessons learned and advice for media artists
• (00:30:32) Conclusion and final thoughts 

About Ariana Gerstein

Ariana Gerstein is an experimental filmmaker and media artist who creates innovative projection installations and cinematic works. A Guggenheim Fellow and a Professor at Binghamton University’s Department of Cinema, her practice explores memory, time, and personal narratives through non-traditional filmmaking techniques. Her work has been screened at venues like the Museum of Modern Art and the European Media Arts Festival and has received awards such as the Gus Van Sant Award for Best Experimental Film. Supported by the Rockefeller Media Arts Fellowship and the National Endowment for the Arts, Ariana’s art challenges conventional storytelling and engages audiences in unique visual experiences.

 About Monteith McCollum

Monteith McCollum’s acclaimed films have screened at venues such as the Museum of Modern Art, the Hirshhorn Museum, and festivals including SXSW, Hot Docs, and the European Media Arts Festival. A recipient of the IFP Truer Than Fiction Spirit Award, Monteith’s work has also been supported by the Rockefeller Foundation, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the New York Foundation for the Arts. In addition to filmmaking, he creates innovative sound compositions for films and performances, merging his expertise in storytelling and audio to deliver engaging, multi-sensory experiences.

Takeaways from this interview with Ariana Gerstein and Monteith McCollum

"Clothing blowing in the wind carries its own lyrical power."

What We Bring is an outdoor media installation by Ariana Gerstein and Monteith McCollum that transforms thrifted clothing into projection surfaces. Suspended on lines like drying laundry, the clothing moves with the wind, altering the projected images and adding an organic, unpredictable quality.

"The streets of Athens inspired this project, weaving personal and public narratives."

What We Bring is part of a larger documentary project on migration and personal history. Inspired by a vibrant clothesline in Athens. Ariana reimagined the scene as an open-ended installation, replacing structured film narrative with a sensory public experience.

"Prototyping at home can only prepare you so much—every site changes the piece."

Unlike static gallery settings, What We Bring relies on audience movement and interaction. Viewers experience projections from different angles, while sound cans offer personal, tactile engagement with recorded stories and ambient sounds

"We tend to allow one of us to take the lead, with the other supporting where needed."

Ariana led the creation of What We Bring, while Monteith contributed problem-solving and sound design skills, reinforcing their approach of balancing individual strengths.

"Learn to adapt and embrace the unexpected—it’s part of creating art for public spaces."

Flexibility is key. While prototyping is crucial, artists must be open to revising their work based on site-specific challenges and audience engagement. 

Links from this interview with Ariana Gerstein and ​Monteith Mccollum

• Learn more about What we bring
• Visit Ariana Gerstein’s website
• Follow Ariana Gerstein on Instagram 
• Visit Monteith McCollum’s website 
• Learn more about Isadora
• Read Robin’s reflection on this conversation – Feeling vs thinking: How art and documentary shape experiences differently

Edited transcript of this interview with Ariana Gerstein and ​Monteith McCollum

Working with weather as an active material

Robin: Experience what we bring.

Ariana: Uh, well, it's outdoors and The installation is at its best when there's some weather involved. So if the wind is blowing, or maybe even a light rain, or even if the wind is blowing violently, it's, it becomes more interesting because the installation feels like it's alive.

It's glowing, um, the images are changing. It's movie images and still images. And so, People just happen upon it, and when it's moving, it's more interesting.

Robin: Why is it better when there's a little bit of disruptive weather?

Projecting onto clothing and why movement matters

Ariana: I think because we're projecting on clothing. And this is real clothing that we've gone to the Goodwill and the resale shops to find.

And I've altered them a little bit to make them more translucent. But still, it's real clothing hanging from a line like you would see outside, clothes to dry. And the clothing has more personality when it's blowing in the wind. It has its own movement, its own sort of lyrical power. And then with the projections on Added to it, it just feels more true and not like something that would be static that you would say, find in a gallery where everything is controlled.

Monteith: I mean, there's a lots of complications that come with having Clement weather. I mean, the first time we installed it was at a festival called LUMA Projection Arts Festival here in Binghamton. And then the second time was at CURRENTS New Media in Santa Fe and both conditions were very different. So it was raining a lot. Actually in Binghamton when it was installed here and then in Santa Fe, there were actually pretty big gusts of wind.

So the fabric had to be altered somewhat like weighted so that there was some stability, but it's, so it's about getting kind of like the right amount of movement. If the wind was too hard, it would blow the clothing. Completely horizontal. So you wouldn't see any image. So it's actually frustrating and difficult.

So it's funny that, I mean, you're under, your question is understandable. Like, why would you want bad weather? Because it's like, but it, it, it just creates a different, a very different energy. But yeah, you have to fight it at the same time a little bit.

Robin: You said that, Adrian, you put it really nicely that you're.

Robin: You're not in a controlled environment and then if you accept that and work with it, it becomes more interesting. Doesn't seem they're going, ah, this needs to be in a white, if this was in a white space, this would be, wouldn't be happening. Getting frustrated with. Yeah. I

How public space changes audience behaviour

Ariana: mean, I think the. The attraction of working outside is one, there's, um, you know, the, the possibility of people just finding you because they're out and about anyway, and they're not going to see art, but they just come upon it.

And that's really a wonderful thing. And then also, um, To be outside and to have to deal with the environment that you're hanging. Like once we did it in an alleyway, once we did it next to a railroad track and the train would come by and the lights of the train were also illuminating the clothing. And there was the sound of the train.

And sometimes I would make different decisions based on what was happening outside. So when the train went by, I decided to throw different videos up. That we're moving counter to the train just because it was sort of fun to see how it was interacting with the lights and the movement of the train beside it.

So just having that, um, more complex environment where things are unpredictable and you're, and it's just, it's, it feels more vibrant and you have these opportunities to be surprised.

Robin: What were you trying to achieve conceptually with the piece?

Ariana: So I'm working on a documentary and part of the documentary involved traveling to Athens, Greece in order to interview people, um, and to film locations.

And while I was at one of the locations, um, I saw that there were, there's this wonderful line of clothing hanging in a sort of very commercial area, and it was all different colors, and I felt that there was something, um, sort of celebratory and decorative, but also deeply personal, also very intimate, and it was that, it was both of those things together that brought it into something that felt a little bit more touching, more moving, um, emotionally, um, and, you know, So when I was worked, I keep working on my documentary, but at the same time, I'm looking for ways to kind of break off and explore some of the ideas differently, like not just for the movie theater on DSO.

I had this opportunity. To, um, work at a sort of projection festival locally and I remembered that, um, street in Athens with the clothesline hanging, um, and I just thought, Oh, it'd be really wonderful to kind of like refer to that location and sort of reconstruct it and then bring, bring the images that I made there.

that are part of the film and bring it from Greece back here to New York. But the inspiration was from the streets of Greece. And so I sort of just transplanted that here in upstate New York. And it was a different way to kind of like explore that location. And some of the images that I was working on.

Robin: So in the wider documentary project, you've taken like a moment where there's a strong sense of a particular experience and then sort of rebuilt that, remixed that, resorted in a different location.

Monteith: Yes. I mean, there's something interesting also about this that, um, is very different from the controlled environment of making a film and presenting it and having it change somewhat based on audience reaction and space, but, you know, in an outdoor environment.

Um, where people are unpredictable as well as whether things cause you to react differently. So for instance, one of the, um, aspects of, of this, uh, project that was interesting to see how it changed was that the fabric looked very different projected from the back than it did from the front. So that rear projection look, um, when people would go behind the fabric, it revealed different Aspects of the fabric.

The stitching was different and Ariana when she first saw that got very excited about it when we installed it in the alley here locally at that festival. Um, it was something that. wasn't anticipated completely, you know, and um, was actually the, the ability to see it from both sides is. So what happens,

Ariana: yeah, what happens when you see it from the back of the fabric is that the, basically the, skeleton or the structure of the clothing itself becomes highlighted, you know, cause it's maybe silhouetted by the projection.

So you see buttons and the hemlines, they sort of stand out almost like a x ray. And then you see the, uh, projected images with it. So that's very different from the where on the front you, you see the fabric itself. with the image bouncing off of it, you know, reflected as opposed to having it move through it.

So yeah, it's, it's a different kind of experience from the front and from the back. And I think that using fabric, using clothes that people actually wore is important too, because these are personal, intimate. And there are aspects of my documentary as well that are about just regular people, not famous people.

And so, it brings it down to sort of like everybody's story and the And it's also somewhat about, um, migration. And so the clothing, sometimes when you have to leave a place or travel in many different ways, the thing that you're always bringing with you is some item of clothing, maybe just what you're wearing, but hopefully something more.

And, and so it's very intimate and the stories are intimate as well.

Robin: There's like three quick follow up questions I want to ask in depth, so I'm just trying to figure out. Yep. It's so. In documentaries, quite often there's a sense of a strong sort of position or viewpoint, but there's also this sense of that makes you might get a feeling and an emotional impact from.

Robin: Is that emotional impact is more what's happening and what we bring rather than more dynamics?

Ariana: Yeah, I would say so. With the installation, that would be true. And I think the ha the sound, also, that Monty constructed, and the way in which he presented it, also really helps with the emotional content. So he could tell you a little bit about that.

Sound design using transducers and soup-can listening points

Monteith: Yeah, so the sound changed. We tried an experiment in the, at the Luma Festival here first, and we mounted up high, um, so that individuals walking through the alley would hear, would move through different kinds of channels of sound. It didn't work as well, so then when we Presented it in, uh, at Currents, um, we tried a different method, which is mounting these, um, what they call surface speakers or transducers.

They're basically speakers that make the material vibrate, right? So I mounted these little transducers to the bottom of soup cans, and the cans then had different channels of audio coming out of them, and the cans were mounted to these unipoles that were actually holding the, the lines that were suspending the clothes.

And so it was kind of interesting about that is that with the cans, it meant that people had to go up and pick up the can off a hook and put it up to their ear. And they could hear something that was very focused, right? But it was very, um, thin, a thin sound, you know, obviously like it's not a high quality sound, right?

So, but it was fun to play with different. Uh, field recordings as well as, um, some of the interviews that Ariana had constructed. So in this case, what was interesting to work with was that, that there was information that was presented in some of the cans, which were narrative that tied into the film and based on the moment that somebody would pick up the can, they would get a fragment of that conversation, right?

The other cans had other things. playing in them from, spanning from cats that I recorded, uh, in Greece to snapping shrimp, underwater recordings using hydrophones, um, kind of boats creaking. So it was much more kind of like ambient. Two years ago, we visited several islands. So there was quite a bit of sound that I recorded on, on the island of Hydra.

And, uh, it was from church bells to, um, To kind of street kind of walking sounds and cobblestones and so each can had different kind of like a collage of these different kinds of sounds. So you pick it up. Sometimes you'd hear cicadas, cats, church bells, other, you know, underwater sounds. Other times you would hear conversations.

And so there were, um, I think we had three Um, uh, Yeah. Three or four. Three cans mounted to three of the poles.

Ariana: Because there's, there's a depth to the installation, you know? So the, there's three lines and they're separated by what, like seven feet? Yeah, it was

Monteith: about that, yeah. Right. Seven to ten feet, yeah.

Ariana: So you walk. underneath these lines of clothing that are blowing and the images are projecting on them. So it's a path that you can take and then the cans also sort of descended along this path as well.

Robin: There's a few things I didn't pick up from the documentary. I sort of registered the cans but I didn't realize they had that scent that they were almost like they were linked.

Robin: As wires to the actual pieces of clothing and bulk as well. So it's this moment where that for me sits there and goes, Oh, okay. It's almost like the sonic experience that's happening in the cans is actually from the clothes moving around. But if, why didn't the speakers work?

Monteith: Oh, I think it's about, it's interesting that Arianas talks about the intimacy of the clothing because that's the same thing that the cans.

Presented, which was that it's a physical object that had to be picked up, had to be placed to the ear, and the minute you removed it, it became, uh, The sound kind of evaporated in a sense, like you couldn't, it became unintelligible, right? And with speakers, it's, you don't have that focus, right? So basically it was whatever was in the environment, whether there was music playing in the distance or other sound, it would just, it was just muddying it up.

And it didn't also have that kind of personal connection of an object. right, that was being used. So I think that's why it was much more effective for me. And then you could move with it. So it wasn't like tied to the poles. There was a wire that had a, you can move about eight feet. So you could kind of look up at the, at the line, at the projections on the clothes and move around while you were listening.

You know, and then hook it back up and move to another can. So it's something about the module, the kind of the portability of it. The fact that the viewer had some control over it, just as they have control over how they're looking at an image.

Robin: These projections are really complicated. How did you test and prototype them before you got into the physical spaces?

Ariana: I, I did these setups. As well as possible, just at home, outside. Um, and a lot had to be adjusted on site. But still, there were certain things that I could test.

Monteith: Um, Hanging much lower, too. Yeah,

Ariana: they were hanging much lower, but I could test, say, my software. Because the images are all mapped to the individual pieces of clothing.

And so I could start to see what problems were happening with overlap of images, or which images worked and which didn't, and I could troubleshoot as much as possible at home. And then when I would get to site, I would also have to make more adjustments, but I was still, uh, further along so that also we, we would show the piece would be installed for a couple of nights, two to three nights in a location, which was really nice because every location has.

its own different attributes that it brings to the piece. And the first night I set it up, you know, I do the best I can based on previous experience, but then I come to understand the site. During the projection, and then if I can come back the next night, I'll make changes, I'll choose different images, or I'll add something new.

And, and it's really, I really enjoy that experience of interacting with the site, and not just saying, oh, I made this art piece and it is what it is. No, the art piece is also reacting to and mixing with whatever's in the environment, so you need to make changes, and I really enjoy being out there and changing the projection as it's happening and also having people come up and talk to me and ask me questions and I'll change things as I talk to them.

Like I'll show them how something works and I'll say, well, we, let's put this up instead. And they'll go back and see it from behind the fabric in front of the fabric. So we're all sort of, uh, Having discussions and I find it just it's a great way to experience things and get to understand what the audience thinks, have them be part of the process.

Monteith: I mean, there's some assumptions that are made in terms of how to look at an image. And so when we did it here first, the people wanted to gather from the source of the projection, like where we were and where Ariana was triggering the images. Um, but she found that. Giving some simple like little instructions worked really well Which would be just like move around walk behind the screen the lines or like what were some things that you did some devices that?

You used because that's ties into like kind of what you talked about like what you saw with the train that you responded to the train But in the alley

Ariana: right so when I would when I was on site, I realized that you know, I had this Light leak of the projector and i was trying to control it so that only the clothes would be illuminated i didn't want the light to leak onto the architecture around it right it needed to be specific so usually i was trying to crop the light out but then it occurred to me oh there's a little bit of a light leak say on a building i could use it so on site i would just started right writing little things to the audience on the light leak on the building like putting things.

On the fly, I could just write, you know, stop, turn around, go back, look. And, and it was really fun to see that people would look at the wall, read the instructions, and then

Robin: do it. I'm fascinated by this idea that it's not static for lots of different reasons, and galleries and events always worry about media work, and maintenance and change is almost like a bad thing.

Robin: Whereas you've sort of played with it, is it feeling like a performance for you or is it still really a spank?

Ariana: Yeah, I think it's a little of both. I think it's an installation in a space and it also has performative aspects to it. It's

Monteith: got plenty of performative aspects because you are constantly changing what you're doing and you're responding to the audience.

Like if they've been standing there a while, you want to play with different images being revealed.

Robin: The techie question for a moment. Why did you work with Isadora?

Ariana: Why Isadora? Oh, I know there are a lot of different kinds of software out there, so it's not like I had the opportunity, I think, to really try them all and compare.

Monty introduced me to Isadora, and it has a lot of aspects that I really like, but I don't know if it's necessarily better or worse than anything else, it's just what I was using. But I don't know, Monty, why did you start using it? Because you introduced me to it.

Monteith: Well, I mean, I was exploring Software that's more like VJ oriented kind of software.

Um, it, the thing that I like about Isadora is it's just flexibility as a program. So once you start learning it, it feels like if you want to continue to do different things, you don't have to learn. It's not necessarily. You don't have to learn another program, it's kind of there, it's just maybe you haven't accessed it.

You know, it's not the easiest program, it's also not the most difficult program either. So I mean, there are simpler programs if you just want to trigger an image, but that's not what we're necessarily just interested in doing. I use it for also motion tracking things and, and doing different kinds of things like using, or I have done that, using tracking things, um, but we both use it in a little bit of a different way.

I mean, Ariana's a little bit better at mapping organic kind of forms. She's gotten really Good at that, where I use it for in a different way in my, my performance. So the

Robin: way I sometimes think about this sort of relationship between creating and just these, these tools is that you sort of express it really well in terms of the facts.

And so it has lots of possibilities. So you sort of sit there and go, yes, this is my tool. And you keep on pushing, changing your relationship with the tool and what you do with it, rather than jumping around to different things. And sometimes that's actually just easier on our learning curve. So it's funny, as I was thinking about that particular question, I sat there and went, I expect this is because it's part of a larger set of tools that you both work with.

Ariana: Yeah, we do. So this is where we're working with a lot of tools related to image creation, both still and moving. So this is just one component. We don't do everything in it.

Monteith: No, we use so many other programs in conjunction with it. I think, you know, it's one of the final kind of output. Programs to use, I mean, in prepping images or prepping sound, we use different kinds of programs in that process.

Ariana: So one thing I would say about Isadora is I like that it feels kind of bare bones, and it doesn't feel really fancy and slick. Because I feel like some software sort of wants to put, push you towards a certain kind of output, a certain kind of look, and Isadora doesn't do that.

Robin: Yeah. It's actually one of my problems with some of, most of its visual programming languages.

Robin: has a mindset about mapping and flow that you have to sometimes break. Otherwise you end up with things that are very similar and it's like, okay, yep, this is the mindset is as an instrument rather than a narrative structure. You two are both sort of hinting at. This next question a little bit, it's, I'm interested to know how does your collaboration work?

Ariana: So Monty and I have been working together for a really long time because we first started working together on a documentary of his, um, and I came on to be editor of his documentary and then we've worked off and on together just helping with each other's film. So we're pretty good at Knowing what it is we both bring to a collaboration and being honest with each other, I would say.

Monteith: Yeah, and it's changed over the years. I mean, we know, we've kind of realized we had one project that we were a little bit more like on equal footing with and it was, it was more of a struggle. So we tend to allow one of us to have more of a voice in a project or, and so that, those struggles aren't as present.

So if I'm working on something and I really need Ariana's assistance with, you know, it'll, it'll still be kind of. His project my project in a way that's and that's kind of how that's how I see this project even though I'm a collaborator It's like it's really coming from you know, the time and material she spent working on the film She knows it more intimately than I do right, but I've been working with her on the sound component Over, over the last few years.

So I was really happy to engage with that part of the process. And then I also like building and so like being part of the planning and helping erect the structures or just working with the layout of it. It was fun.

Ariana: Right. Like I might say to Monty that I'd really like something to happen, or I'll say, can we achieve this?

Can we hang the lines in this location? He's really great at problem solving that because he knows how to construct things and so he can bring that construction experience.

Monteith: Yeah, we work differently. Every project we work differently and we don't always involve each other, but um, we kind of, well, actually I take that back.

We always do involve each other in some form, just maybe not. With advice or comments or like,

Robin: yeah, as you're talking, I'm seeing they're doing a whole actual facts quite often when I'm installing something, it's actually my wife is a jeweler. So she's great 3D things and building and just attention to detail.

Robin: It's just radically different with physical things. So I'm going, should I call her a collaborator? Maybe I should.

Monteith: Well, I see it as an asset, so it's been great to be able to do, have that kind of meeting of minds for us.

Robin: Yeah. Jeff, thank you for having a go at talking about, because there's actually some really nice insights that came from that as well. Every time we make a piece, we learn something. What did you actually learn from this particular space, the making of this space?

Ariana: I mean, the different spaces have different lessons attached to them, and there's always room to change the project, which is what's so wonderful about the installation in the outside environment. It probably would be inside too. I mean, just any different kind of environment. So different from as a filmmaker showing your film at festivals.

Where it's always, I mean, there are different rooms and different amounts of people, but still you made the film and it's out of your hands and it's going to project in their space. It's gonna run its course. I mean, the amount of surprise that happens and growth that happens in the installation environment and just being able to work with environment is, I feel like you learn so much.

And also the audience, the way that You know, people aren't necessarily coming to see your project. They just sort of happen to be there. And it's wonderful when it's a surprise. Like I remember at Currents, a woman driving by on her bicycle because she just had somewhere to go. She jumps off her bike because she sees this thing.

And then she spent like 40 minutes with us talking and saying, well, I never thought I would see this. And I never intended to. And then we had this long conversation about art and about what she was looking at. And then after 30, 40 minutes, she got on her bicycle and went on her way. I mean, that's like, you're not, that's not going to happen at a festival.

It's wonderful.

Robin: You know? You're reminding me of the moments when I was doing some prep work for an interview that didn't end up happening. It was a sound installation in a laneway. So very similar situation. At lunchtime. And people kept on sort of getting below the speakers and then looking up doing, oh, what's happening?

Robin: And it was just a really lovely moment because they weren't, were not expecting it at all. And then I think one person then paused and was like, this is a really different way to encounter. Got my wrap up question which leads in nicely to that. What's the greatest piece of advice for other media artists to work in public spaces?

Monteith: Well, we have learned, I mean, we both work differently and I just, I think that if you're taking into consideration what you get and one of the things that we like about this is that, and this is the reason like I like working in performance too, is that like we've said, we have a control. When the film is done, it's presented in a festival or in a theater and then you don't have that control.

So I guess you have to learn to not have to roll with that kind of wild card of things happening. And it can be fun as long as you don't let it kind of stress you out, right? And know that unexpected things are going to happen to be prepared to kind of have a plan B, a plan C, a plan D, and to kind of adapt.

And that's kind of what it's about, which is having that it's not fixed. It's spontaneous things are going to happen and you have to be willing to kind of be up for that experience, but also know the place a little bit. I mean, I think that one of the things that we were worried about with currents was that it wasn't an alley.

We had had this experience with an alley with two large, you know, brick walls on either side. And in the, at currents, we had one building on one side and then it was an open and unipoles on the other side and then the train tracks, right? So it just read very differently. They were both installed at similar height, almost similar distances, but the experience was so different. Based on the fact that it wasn't an enclosed space like that.

Robin: It's interesting to sort of reflect back at, in terms of that whole, you wish someone would give you some insights and it's, I'm thinking they're thinking about the fact that some of the things you've done, which is like prototyping the high risk thing, which is the projections away from the space is really important.

Robin: And then also having that risk factor ABC plan if things go wrong as well.

Monteith: Yeah. I mean, when you're prototyping, like when she was testing it out here on our yard, the line was only two to three feet off the ground. And then you don't have the same wind at that level. You raise something up 10 feet and then there's a lot more wind that can catch the fabric or other kinds of, you know, like also on our property, it was much darker.

We don't have, we don't live in the city. So there's, you can only do so much with like testing something out and then you move it to a different location. And it Does drastically change, even though you think you have the control.

Practical challenges: permissions, light spill, and public risk

Ariana: So, so one of the things that made this project difficult, both times, was that we had to fasten into someone else's property.

And so dealing with other people's property, I mean, I think that's really difficult. And if, if I'd constructed something or had come up with an idea where I didn't have to like drill.

Into someone's building or sidewalk, it'd be a little easier and you really need to think about that. 

Robin: That's a challenge I hadn't actually thought about in terms of the actual installation, whereas if you were in a gallery, that'd be fine for you to drill some holes in the wall, as long as you fix them up, but it's a bit different when it's a property.

Ariana: Yeah, like when we first set up in Binghamton, we were trying to figure out how to adhere to the building walls, so we had permission to draw a line across buildings owned by two different people, but then we couldn't make a hole in it, so Monty came up with this idea of using C clamps, and then we went there the night before to sort of practice and see how the lines could be drawn with C clamps onto sort of protrusions on the building, and then a guy stuck his head out the window of one of, and said, you can't do that there, because we were trying to, attached to what was Firescape.

And he's like, you can't attach to the fire escape, right? It's like, you know, oh yeah, right. So then, you know, we had permission to the building, but still it's, it's like figuring things out and there are so many sort of rules and problems dealing with property.

Monteith: And then, so then there's lights in cities, there's just lights everywhere.

So like in an alleyway, even security lights that are on that you don't know how to turn off or, so you have to figure out how to mask lights, get permission to mask a light or to wrap it. And tinfoil or black wrap or do something, you know, and then even just like rogue actors in an alley. I mean, like in Binghamton, we had problems with the fact that it's a college town.

And so fraternity kids would be kind of walking through at a certain point in the night. And so we had to roll the clothes up at night so that.

Even though they're really high up, if somebody like jumped up or got on somebody's shoulders, they could pull the installation down. So we had to think about how it could be kind of gathered.

Ariana: How it was going to maintain itself over multiple nights.

Robin: Without needing 24 hours. Very, really good, great conversation today.